If anybody, therefore, is prematurewith any statement then it is Dr Pretorius himself who is prematurein his assumption that the applicants will not be granted amnesty. You may not have you say? There were manydossiers but whether there were any arrests made I would not beable to answer. Question: The instructions to you to kill, you say camefrom higher authority, in your evidence you were given an instructionfor example by Brigadier, now I think General Van der Merwe whowas head of the Security Branch and Brigadier Broodryk? Firstly a person who isquestioned by the Commission and secondly a person has been subpoenaedto give evidence. MR DU plessis : Mrs Maake, if he was old enough to havehad a child, I put it to you that he could have been involvedin politics and could have been an informer as well. Before Brigadier Victor's command the security police acted ina reactionary way only, and this meant that activists responsiblefor offences and other acts aimed at destabilising the countrywere arrested and dealt with in terms of the existing legislation, including security legislation. 1B MR DU plessis : /. The threeactivists were at this meeting.
We were Security Police, we wenton course, on security courses. She doesn'tstay with the jobs tyou can work from home mother, she stays with. We were made to believe that our participation in thesecurity forces was justified to uphold apartheid. Social Security News Social Security Advised to Return to Mailing Paper Statement by Advisory Board MySSA online is commendable but advisory board still has three big concerns By Tucker Sutherland, editor, m Jan. Commission adjourns 57 GNL VAN DER merwe commission resumes chairman : General I don't have to remind you, you arestill under oath. Premier Social Security Consulting, is gathering an "army of advisors" nationwide to educate baby boomers on the most optimal time to access Social Security benefits. MR currin: Yes Mr Chairman that was the first time we'dheard that allegation and while Mr Du Plessis was busy addressingyou, my colleague Mr Van der Berg was taking instructions andhe just came back to me now. 143 brig cronje I know this same procedure was followed in all the other divisionsof the security police throughout the country. MR DU plessis : Were those the only people living in thehouse at that time, Mrs Maake?
What would you have considereda reasonable response? He noted that Social Security is often not enough for a secure retirement. Chairman : That deals with intimidation. I am knockingoff at around two or around one, but at times I worked the 5A whole/. Mr Chairman I wasn't under the impressionthat that provision included copies of the applications to everyinterested party. MS khampepe: So in fact, having to remove Pete Ntuliwho was a leader of Mbkhoto, would not have really addressed yourproblems? (commencement OF recording tape3B) MR DE jager. In the early hours of the morning we arrivedin Port Elizabeth and went to the railway station to Glen Connorwhere we stayed in a house. Question: Were they supported by the South African Government? Question: Your application, you took an oath which yousigned, what was that oath for? And we submit that the only basis upon which this applicationcan be determined is the Promotion of National Unity and ReconciliationAct.
His report that they wantedto receive military training, that would have been an oral orverbal report. I think in reports about his involvement and I certainlythought that if Government thought it necessary, they would havespoken to him about. Judge wilson 278 had taken any part in the kidnapping or any part in what subsequentlyhappened and I should think it is regrettable if there was anyreport which indicated anything to the contrary. Thereare certain arrangements - my learned friend contacted me in respectof one person, Mr Tebedi who is the speaker of the North WestParliament who has to be back tomorrow and he requested that mylearned friend asked me if we could. Answer: No it's not the veld, it's a township, it wasactually a middle-class area to be specific. Question: One or the other?
I'm not even sure they need to see the applicationbeforehand. MR DU plessis 350 AN vuuren Tshilahle he might have been with us and that only Mukaka mighthave been left with the other two, but I am not sure about this. Also correspondence was kept in duplicatein my files and the Head Office files. June 21, 2014 - Most of the questions asked in the Social Security Q A have to do with benefits - when should you take them, how can you estimate them - and it is the same this week. These are simply persons who will say that we had children orhusbands who went missing at a certain stage until during thecourse of this year has the State obtained statements, it becamepossible to determine where these family members might. Did you hear that? Louis Le Grange was then the Minister of Police. Question: Could I get some further clarity in this regard, the elimination of Mr Sefola for instance would that have beenidentified by yourself or by your unit and then presented to Trevitsand confirmed by them or how did it work? MR mpshe 582 ronje National Party? After about two hours he returned with Sefola. 134 brig cronje destabilising the country. Answer: I disagree, where they to return as well-trainedterrorists, then they could have struck anywhere in the Republicand I wouldn't have known how to prevent them from doing. That is not what you want but were you saying thatas a last resort we could possibly do that?
Judge wilson : Her sister would have been his aunt. Judge wilson : And have any enquiries been made about thislicence? Answer: Unfortunately Chair I was too insignificant tohave anything to do with Trevits, I had no idea what happenedsubsequently. MR DU plessis : Brigadier let me make it clear, it appearsthat there are persons who do not understand your testimony. General VAN DER merwe : He might well have asked or hewould have been allowed to ask. Were instructions normally given in writing or orally? Judge ngoepe : Can I just ask you something. Question: Mr Tibedi during the 1980's you supported thestruggle? The exact course of events I cannot tell you, I assume that Imust have informed him what happened and that he would have reportedback to then Brigadier Smit. It was my ownvehicle. MR mpshe 269 J hechter it and a lot of information became more clear as we discussedit.
MR mpshe:.of your application, the third paragraph: ".the minibus had tinted windows." answer: Chair the minibus had tinted windows and therewere curtains on the inside of the vehicle. Answer: It was discussed every morning in what they referredto as the "San Hedron it was a meeting of all thesection heads or heads of units at the head office, this was referredto as the "San Hedron". 131 the question whether the State witnesses should give evidencebefore the Commission or not. I am sorry to inconvenience youin that regard. At that stage I was not involved with trevets, Iwas at C1 in Vlakplaas, I would therefore not know whether thenames were on this list. Question:.in those regions, is that correct? We would not be ableto put this person in a court. Now can you look at this document. I was then transferred to the John Vorster Square afterthe independence of the Transkei. MR DU plessis : Mr Van Vuuren, did you obtain informationfrom him with regard to the involvement of the killing and deathof innocent persons? Question: Who else was on the State Security Councildo you know? Judge ngcobe: Sorry Mr Mpshe, was the injection, eventhough you don't know what it was made of and what it containedand so on and so forth, but was it meant to be lethal?
Brig cronje : Correct. MR mpshe: Mr Chairman, if the Chair allows me it mightnot be apposite to do it now because some response has been doneto what my learned friend Mr Du jobs tyou can work from home Plessis has said. MR mpshe 574 ronje MR mpshe: That is Exhibit N Mr Chairman, members of theCommittee, thank you. Question: Could you continue? MR curren : No, no, no, we asked if we could have a copyso we could make copies for ourselves and we were declined. He has added murder, but wewould submit, with respect, that it doesn't take the matterany further as the facts to which he has deposed does not discloseor make out any case of murder or even an association with murder. I left the service in 1987. That is why I went to the head office. MR VAN vuuren : I have already said that we thought thatMaake was a double agent after the interrogation and having identifiedMakope, who brother was a trained ANC terrorist in Lusaka, wecontinued with the interrogation.
He was jobs tyou can work from home one of the pawns in thiscell and that is why we decided to eliminate him. Was the informationsystem of the Security Police sufficient with regard to the particularactions of activists or operations of terrorists to stop theseactions before they occurred? MR DE jager: Was this Charl Naude notified about thishearing that? I have arrived here this morning, I don't knowMr Chairman what you expect of me, I wasn't present when the previousprocedures took place. Answer: It was only myself and W/O Van Vuuren. Specific goals were then determined with regard to the actionsto be taken. Mr Chairman before we start, it seems that the one aspect of these applications in the pressureunder which they were drawn that didn't receive the attentionthat it should have received was the specific deeds and the identificationthereof.
Question: Brigadier I want to refer you to a particulardocument, to a document with regard to the situation of war, thestate of war and the questions of Mr Curran in that regard. That is the kind of warwe were fighting and that was also the war they were fighting. MR DU plessis : What was the response of Sefola when youinterrogated him, did he give you the information easily? One cannot see on what grounds Statewitnesses would not speak the truth. 80 GNL VAN DER merwe Cronje, one of the applicants, where did he figure? MR currin : You heard evidence this morning by the applicants, and in particular Mr Van Vuuren, that your son had left the countryfor training for a period of three months. What her feeling is about amnesty, and I would liketo just give her an opportunity to express a view of the application, if I may. I may add that C3 was trevets, as previously mentioned. And we also had our own normal activities with which we went. Chairman : I think we should first find out whether weare talking about the same person before you start handing upthe photograph.
It is a conversation withChris Hani who was a member of the Executive Council of the ANC, he was also the army commissar of MK, it was published in Sitraba(?)during December 1986 in the.I want to ask. MR VAN vuuren : I can only say this. MR DU plessis : I understand. We also had a churches' section like the blackpower section, the C section where the much talked about "Vlakplaas"resorted under, we also had the churches' section and they broughtit to our attention that Father Makatshwa was very much involvedin especially the. If such an instruction had been given I would agree with theway in which Brigadier Cronje had understood it, but I am notaware of such instructions. In every one of those 4B applications/. Chairman: I think. Question: The house in which you lived, is that yourhouse?
MR currin : (Question inaudible) MR VAN vuuren : We went to Minetoria. Answer: "In August 1988 the NEC, the National Elective(?) Councilissued statements specifically on the conduct of the armed strugglein the country. COL venter : If I received no cooperation, I would detainhim and continue to interrogate him, indefinitely. The version that I place before the Commissionin my application is the version of my involvement in this mattertold to me by Paul van Vuuren. MR mpshe 572 ronje intention as that for which they were intended. ThenMbkhoto and the ANC had the same purposes, namely political unrest, murder, assault and destabilisation. Answer: No it's difficult for me to do so because someof them they have already completed matric but they are sittingat home, they can't continue their schooling because I can't afford. However, despite all these efforts describedabove the security situation in South Africa continued to deteriorateand the climate of violence and unrest increase. It would require that a person would have beenrepudiated for actions not known at a higher level. NO RE-examination BY MR DU plessis chairman: Mr Mpshe you have no further questions? Thispeople don't even deserve it because if the person was to be forgiven, he must understand what you feel. We were not on Vlakplaas; we did not try to recruit them as members of the Security 2A Branch/. MR DU plessis 342 AN vuuren MR VAN vuuren : This was the Kerkstraat or Church Streetbomb.